In the Atheist's view of his surroundings, he finds himself in a world full of plant life, animal life, insect life, microscopic life, aquatic life, millions of different life forms, yet, when describing our thoughts in which we perceive our surrounding and learning about them, they say ... "There can be no explanation for our thought process, and therefore, they are just part of us and our DNA, and we just go with the flow." The really dark side of this non-believing ideology, is what comes at the end of the thought process, "At the end of all thought communication, is just a vast emptiness, void, as we cease to exist."
So the Atheist must then be scratching his head, wondering to him/her's self, "Why am I here?" But do they? No.
Doesn't add up, does it? If there is no future purpose for our lives, then why should we be here in the first place? How could it even be possible for us to simply live and exist without a purposeful plan made for us? With a universe so unbelievably gigantic beyond comprehesion, making us virtually invisible, non-entities amid the vast span of space...and yet, we know it is there, it is all around us, our conscience telling us every second of every day, "10 trillion galaxies, well, no one actually knows how many there are, and here I am, on the only planet within those trillions of galaxies that has life on it, How in the world did I wind up being a part of this majestic eco-system? And to beat all, of all the life forms, I'm the only one out of those millions of species that can comprehend the vastness of this monstrous place.
What if God is in it? "Oh, nooo, nooo, this is all there is, this is all we have."
You see, friends, for the Atheist, it's a sad, depressing, and dark world...all they have is what exists within this material world, and nothing to look forward to, because it's "the end", they "cease" to exist making their existence in the world "pointless."
What it really all boils down to, is that the Atheist does not want to acknowledge that he/she is weak... in other words, there's the presumption that every person has the "power" to overcome his/her's obstacle no matter how great an obstacle that may be, simply by taking advantage of all they think there is to to take advantage of. The reality is, they are 'helpless.' Not because they think they "don't need any help", but because they choose to believe that this is "all there is" to make progress. So now a new problem arises - We have to ask the Atheist who is living now, if this is all there is, and the end, or death of the physical body results in the death of the thought process making it "void of substance, just an endless pit of vanity" then what will succeeding generations after you have to look forward to...vanity also? In essence, making not only yourself worthless, but those who follow you also. Did you ever stop to think, the same material that you work with, is the same identical material that your successors will work with, making it all worthless junk as well, because how much does it benefit you; and your successors in the end, if there is nothing but a "bottomless pit of vanity for you, when you cease to exist? You didn't make it, it was already here when you came into the world, and if this, the material, is all there is, then how did it get here? Something so complex as this world couldn't have just "magically appeared", because if it just "magically appeared" then what was the purpose behind it, and us human beings, being the only species on earth with the ability to comprehend it confounds that question even further.
So, splain away, if you can...I'll give my version, or believer's version I should say, tomorrow, or the next day.
--Jeremiah--
Thanks for visiting Conservatives United!
Ok.
ReplyDeleteThe first thing we will have to agree on before we can have this discussion is that belief alone does not make anything true. Otherwise, I someone would have caught Santa by now.
Therefore, you can forget all your arguments based on the lines of " I know it is true because I feel it in my gut." Your gut feeling is irrelevant to the universe.
Now, as an atheist myself, and a rationalist (which I would define as someone who does not believe in anything supernatural at all), I am well placed to tell you that you are wrong about atheism.
To me, rationalism is intimately bound to the scientific way. Not believing in sky fairies means you have to discover the rules of the game by yourself, and that means trying and finding out.
Now to answer your post.
You say we believe there can be no explication for our thought processes.
Yet to get this very message across to us, you use a technology that is man-made, totally artificial, and therefore understood by man. this technology allows for reasonning, communication, and problem-solving. It is called a computer. While computers lack the plasticity of the human brain, and no software designed to date has achieved self-awareness, computers regularily beat humans at chess. They display the most easily modelised forms of thought processes, and these processes thay master, they can apply many times faster than our own brains.
The second assumption you make is to say that we, atheists, do not wonder why we are here.
It is, of course, a laughable claim. The urge to understand, to make sense of the world, is common to every single human in the world.
However, where we differ, you and I, is in the way we go looking for the truth. You believe everything a single book tells you is true. This book, written by humans thousands of years ago, oos the tool you use to view today's society, today's world. In effect, you adhere to answers given thousands of years ago, and discard any bit of knowledge that is more recent than that. I, on the other hand, always try to test what I believe about the world to thae world itself.
This is, in fact, what the scientific method is all about. Try to make sense of something. Once you believe you have, test that understanding by trying to prove yourself wrong. And, above all, try it against the real, material, demonstrable world. If you believe heavier objects fall faster, take two items and drop them from the same height at the same time. If you believe there is such a thing as a soul, that survives the body after death, find a way to photograph it, make it visible, audible, make it go through any sort of device that detects it. When you do, I will believe it is there.
The atheist is the one who is unafraid to say "I do not know", but the next sentence out of his mouth will always be "but let me try and find out".
You, on the other hand, have taken the easy way out of having to think. You do not thinq for yourself, you refer to your book. You do not test yourr knowledge against the world, ytou test it against the very same book. And when you find inconsistencies, you say "it is a mystery" or "it is the human mind's fault" and you thinq no further unpon it.
You also appeal to the size of the universe, trying to pretend it does prove the existence of god. I do not quite understand your argument here. In fact, given the size of the universe, I think that believing we are somehow so special in the eyes of its (alleged) creator is the height of hubris. As you said, we are but one of the life forms on a tiny planet in the middle of nowhere. As for our being the only thinking life-form, I do not think this has been proven either. After all, we have not yet found a way to cross the stars, why should we expect any spacedwelling creature to think us worth a visit?
You also accuse the atheist of not wanting to acknowledge his weakness. I must admit, I actually laughed on that one.
Atheists are, once again, those who acknowledge they are weak, that they do not know things. Atheists are the ones trying to master their surroundings, to gain more power over his destiny, through science and technology.
theists, on the other hand, react to their weakness by denying it. In making themselves believe there is a benevolent force that protects them, or will console them after they die, they can delude themselves into thinking they have power over the world. Praying for something is exactly like asking your big brother to do something that you cannot do, that you are too weak to do yourself.
With the difference that praying to any god, be it Rama, Vishnu, Yaveh, Zeus or the flying spaghetti moster, has exactly the same demonstrable effect : none.
In fact, a study was done on three set of hospital patiens, all suffering from the same serious condition. Some were prayed for, in christian services. Some were told by their doctors they were prayed for.
(in some case they were, in others they were not. It was the same modus operandi as used when testing a new drug : to some patients you give the drug, to some others you just say you do and you give a placebo)
The experiment was made on a large number of people. The results were that praying had no beneficial effect on the rate of recovery of the patients (and rememder, that was a whole church doing the praying). In fact, the patients that were told they were being prayed for had a higher rate of death than the others (wether they were prayed for or not).
So how, do you ask, do we atheists find purpose in our lives?
We make it. We try to find the way that makes us happiest, and to do that we make those e love as happy as we can. We obey morality, not because if we do not we'll burn in hell forever (talk about a bad reason! if the promise of eternal torment is necessary to prevent you to kill people, you re one sad human being indeed), but because we woud feel bad if we did not. Every time we do good, it is becaus we chose it, not because we were scared into it. And eveyt time the world asks us about right or wrong, we take some time to think before we answer. We build whealth, in goods and knowledge, to pass on to those we love, so that they can be happier, because we want them happy.
You ask if this material world is all there is, in my opinion. Yes, I believe it is. Does this make me feel worthless? No. My worth is in my actions, in the betterment of the world I can contribute. not because if I am naughty, I will be punished ater I die. Because I want to see those I love happy, and I want to leave them happy when I die.
The other part of what made me laugh in your post is the part about magically creating the world.
You, as a christian, believe the world was magically created. You believe it was conjured up through a magical incantation. You even believe this incantation could be translated by "let there be light".
In response to this type of illogical reasoning all I can say is "The fool hath said in his heart, there is no God"... yes they're still around today, prevalent in the society in which we live. Disclaiming the human creation by only one who "Is Truth" who Was, Who Is, And Who Is to come."
ReplyDeleteAlways denying the Truth and trying to find success and right in their own ideologies. Always denying truth & reasoning, and for that I'm sad for the athiests.
Part of what you say is true but in the most part we have to deny what your words say.
You say the Christians God is not real, the Christians God is false., well If My God took His finger from your life for one minute your life would be snuffed out, leaving you in not a void, but In a "Real" place of existence. "Of the two that are real" Heaven and Hell. And Jesus said, "Its not my will that any should perish, but that all come to repentance".
My friend what you don't realize is that the TRUE scientist will affirm the existance of a creator, because as they take the head of a pin and under the microscope (magnified billions of times), they find that there are yet, trillions of microscopic neutrons, proteons, inside the nucleus and they find that simply just amazing. and they say, there has to be a creator.
The athiest scientist will say, well our stars are billions of light years from earth, (in trying effortlessly to prove evolution), yet the God of Creation simply created the Stars and Created the Light Speed that INSTANTLY put the light within eyesight, (for instance the sun), etc... for an example to our readers. So as you arise in the morning, look at the mountains, the rivers, the majestic trees, the Sky, the Sun, and Moon, and we must exclaim aloud that yes there is a Lord and A God that has created all of this.
When we can forget what we "try" to do in ourselves and get real in life and realize that your help comes only because of Jesus Christ who died on Calvary, and because He has given life to all those who come to Him."
Many believe they can get their bootstraps and pull themselves out of the mire and the clay and the filthy they're in, (that's how I once believed), and when they're flat on their backs they look up, and Say Oh God."
When an airplane is going down and the engines are smoking, guess who the athiest calls out for?" When the ship is sinking and water is surrounding the place of hiding, guess who they call out to?" When all else has failed in their lives, and they're at the end and they've hopelessly come to their searchless end to find that it all failed, guess what? They begin to wonder, Was I really right?
Friends, let me tell you, When life has come to an end and Earth is no more, the man and woman, boy and girl who bleieved in the only one who can sustain and encourage and give joy and freedom in their lives, they can say, "It is Amazing Grace" And that is what the Athiests cannot understand. Its called LOVE.
"For God sent His Son into the World, That Whosoever believeth in Him, should not perish, but have eternal life." John 3:16.
jAnd for this I am truly truly thankful,
If there were no heaven to gain, and no hell to shun, I'd still want to serve Jesus Christ the Only King of Kings and Lord of Lords who died on the cross of calvary, the only saviour of mankind.
So... you searching for something true, something right, something that will last forever, then turn your hearts to the one who is able to save you from an eternal life of bliss.
........truth is right
In response to this type of illogical reasoning all I can say is "The fool hath said in his heart, there is no God"...
ReplyDeleteIn other words you do exactly as I predicted, you cite your book without questioning it and take it as truth. Thank you for proving my point.
You say the Christians God is not real, the Christians God is false., well If My God took His finger from your life for one minute your life would be snuffed out, leaving you in not a void, but In a "Real" place of existence. "Of the two that are real" Heaven and Hell. And Jesus said, "Its not my will that any should perish, but that all come to repentance".
I say I do not believe in any god, nor in any supernatural creature, nor in anything that breaks the laws of physics (not our understanding of them, mind you). Your quoting from a book that is hundreds of years old and calls for the stoning of adulterers, that states what the price should be when you sell your sister into slavery, and wants to lay down a moral law is not going to change anything. In other words, if you want to prove me wrong, conjure up a miracle.
Oh and I already stopped believing in a man that can be in every house in the same night, know who has been naughty or nice and reward them accordingly when I was around 6. Why do you still believe in another?
Moreover, do you not think anyone from any other religion could have made exactly the same argument? What makes your argument true and theirs false?
My friend what you don't realize is that the TRUE scientist will affirm the existance of a creator, because as they take the head of a pin and under the microscope (magnified billions of times), they find that there are yet, trillions of microscopic neutrons, proteons, inside the nucleus and they find that simply just amazing. and they say, there has to be a creator.
No, they will say they are amazed, and go on looking, trying to find the rules that govern these particles, so that they can exploit these rules to, say, make thinking machines, and power your very comfortable flat. The assumption of a creator is not a scientific necessity, therefore it is not made.
The athiest scientist will say, well our stars are billions of light years from earth, (in trying effortlessly to prove evolution)
Evolution is the theory that explains how species differentiate and new species appear. By implying it has anything to do with the distances between stars you show that your science level is insufficient to get you through middle high shool in my country.
, yet the God of Creation simply created the Stars and Created the Light Speed that INSTANTLY put the light within eyesight, (for instance the sun), etc... for an example to our readers. So as you arise in the morning, look at the mountains, the rivers, the majestic trees, the Sky, the Sun, and Moon, and we must exclaim aloud that yes there is a Lord and A God that has created all of this.
And if you find evidence, physical evidence, such as conjuring a pocket universe through prayer which has these properties, you will be believed by the scientific community.
When we can forget what we "try" to do in ourselves and get real in life and realize that your help comes only because of Jesus Christ who died on Calvary, and because He has given life to all those who come to Him."
Many believe they can get their bootstraps and pull themselves out of the mire and the clay and the filthy they're in, (that's how I once believed), and when they're flat on their backs they look up, and Say Oh God."
When an airplane is going down and the engines are smoking, guess who the athiest calls out for?" When the ship is sinking and water is surrounding the place of hiding, guess who they call out to?" When all else has failed in their lives, and they're at the end and they've hopelessly come to their searchless end to find that it all failed, guess what? They begin to wonder, Was I really right?
Even if that were true, as I said in the beginning of my first post, belief alone does not make something true, else santa would have been caught by now. And I find amusing that you believe people can accept god more easily when they are least capable of thinking rationally (when they are scared or depressed) and do not draw the conclusions that I do.
Friends, let me tell you, When life has come to an end and Earth is no more, the man and woman, boy and girl who bleieved in the only one who can sustain and encourage and give joy and freedom in their lives, they can say, "It is Amazing Grace" And that is what the Athiests cannot understand. Its called LOVE.
Atheists love just as you do. But we do not waste our love on fairy tales.
"For God sent His Son into the World, That Whosoever believeth in Him, should not perish, but have eternal life." John 3:16.
More mindless quoting
jAnd for this I am truly truly thankful,
If there were no heaven to gain, and no hell to shun, I'd still want to serve Jesus Christ the Only King of Kings and Lord of Lords who died on the cross of calvary, the only saviour of mankind.
So... you searching for something true, something right, something that will last forever, then turn your hearts to the one who is able to save you from an eternal life of bliss.
........truth is right
Well this was approximately the level of discourse I was expecting here, and let me tell you I am not impressed.
If you believe there is such a thing as a soul, that survives the body after death, find a way to photograph it, make it visible, audible, make it go through any sort of device that detects it. When you do, I will believe it is there.
ReplyDeleteAnonymous,
To get back to what I tried to post yesterday, I had a pretty good post going and then when I tried to post it, the site encountered and error. At any rate, it was a really good post, so I'll try to post it again the best I can, provided the site doesn't go into oblivian again...
Ok, let us try, try, again, shall we...
In the crux of the matter, it was as I had stated before, there are many example from which we can take from nature, example in which God has proven to us the Divine Nature in which He works in the lives of those whom He has Created. Take for example the wind...we can't see it, but we take it on faith that it is there because we can see the effects of it's being there, correct? You can't taste it, you can't see it, you can't possibly contain it, it is an untamed phenomena that exists in the realms that prove without a doubt that we have zero control over the the things that we are limited in power to contain.
But we still have ... faith that it is there.
In the same way, we can take example from our own dealings with other people in which we can apply faith as a source of accomplishing things that we would otherwise be hopeless without it....for example, let's say that you have no means of transportation, and that you have sustained only on your own two feet getting you back and forth to work each day, but it would be made much easier if you were to have a means of transportation...ok, first, it took faith to compell you to have the desire and want-to, to work toward the goal of getting a better means of transportation, correct? Ok, now, one day you decide to use the money you've made to get you to the car dealership and get a better means of transportation...ok, when you arrive at the dealership, and you ask the dealer, "Hey, do you have any reasonably priced cars that I could afford" the dealer then exclaims, "Yeah, sure thing, come on out and check them out" and the car dealer takes you out to the lot where the cars are at, and he picks on out for you and says, "Here's a used toyota tacoma, it is in pretty decent shape and runs like new...want to get in and take it for a spin?" and then you say "Nah, I don't think so, I don't believe it will run" and the dealer fires back, "What? what do you mean it won't run? Get in and try it!" and finally you say "Ok, I'll try it" You get in, and BAM! the vehicle fires right up on the first crank!
It took faith on your part before the car would run, right?
The car salesman knew the vehicle would run from experience, and that's why he conveyed that same message to you, because he knew you needed a better way, and all it took on your part was faith that you could commit to the deal.
Now, not all car salesman are going to be the same...there are good salesman, and there are bad salesman, some who will sale you junk and others who will sale you good products.
It's the same in the Spiritual sense, there is good and there is bad, there is right and there is wrong, and it all depends on your willingness to have faith in whatever particular thing or person you are applying your faith to.
One thing that I would like to mention here briefly, is that, when applying faith in the material things, there will always be let downs, because the material/earthly things do not have feelings, they cannot perceive what is and what is not, they just are in existence, and they were put here for a set purpose, not to be used to uplift self in the process of using them, but as proof of something greater.
As human beings, we can see and feel these things, we have an understanding of the things that are, and even things that we cannot see, such as the wind, we know they are there. These are the things that prove the evidence of an Almighty Creator, such as the Gran Canyon, I don't know if you've been here to see it or not, but that is one example, Niagra Falls another, Mt. Everest another, the Swiss Alps, the snow the rain, the hail, the tilting of the earth to create spring, summer, fall and winter, the oceans fixed into place dividing the land masses so that man may search and grope for and find his Creator.
To contrast you views as an Atheist and my view as a Christian and Creationist--In your view, the sun, moon, stars, mountains, trees, frogs, fish, birds, elephants, cougars, bears, even down to the most simplictic of life forms-- grass, which grows and we cut it, grows and we cut it, on and on. What's really interesing is that you would exclaim "This is all there is" therefore, in your view, it serves no purpose but to allude us to believe that it was all "fake chance" and "accident" if we will.
The ten-million dollar question being, what hope is there in your theory for the rest of mankind. More simply put, what 'good' is there in it? Any?
Whereas, in my theory, I see purpose in the things that are made and created, when I look at nature, I see the evidence of a Creator where you see none--It is not my gut feeling, but my actual evidence I can see with my own eyes. Then there is where the evidence of my faith must be acknowledged, it has a purpose for me so that I may not discount it.......I pick up a frog, "what did this?" I look into a beehive and all the many thousands honeybees and of hexagonal cells filled with honey and pollen, "who done this?"
I look at the sunset on top of kilamanjaro--"who done this?"
I go into the Amazon, where millions of plants and flowers and creatures reside, "Who done this?"
I look into a crystal clear stream where a beautiful bull trout in New Zealan is lying in wait of an insect to get caught in the water and as I reel the rascal in I say "WOW! who done this?"
I go down into the ocean and find myself amongst millions of spectacularly colored salt living creatures--"who done this?"
See? Where you have missing links, I have links!
So who is there to say that I shouldn't be able to quetion and say with certainty what my opinion tells me? You?? Anyone??
--Jeremiah--